Curse

Cynn Evennia · Aug 22, 2006, 10:27 PM // 22:27

*sigh* that post of mine asking for 3-5% extra armor penetration was not very recent, or at least thats not my current train of ideas.

Well i dunno anymore about further suggestions but i want the ele doing more damage and the extra % on armor penetration or damage or something was a first thought. But what it makes me cry is the fact that our only armor ignoring (ranged) spell causes exhaustion. Yes i agree the comparison vs bosses is not the correct measure, i was just complaining because put 5 eles and they will never kill a mursaat monk, but take one mesmer and voila! conditional damage > raw damage...

Fortunately i have found here good ideas here that made me think and change my mind... cool! thats the purpose i came in here, for listening and comparing. Well here i post my favourites:

* summoning a elemental being
* Attunements as skills
* Remove exhaustion on damage elites
* A skill that "locks" enchants, i mean that prevents them to be removed

And one that just came to my mind:

* Eye of the tornado: ward that prevents ranged attacks to hit, ie the Ward vs Melee version that counters projectiles. Certainly necessary versus inters like rangers and the upcoming paragons.

The very essence of all things is change, and eles do need structural changes because ES is no longer seductive for eles but for other professions: at Unwaking waters i prefer to monk as an E/Mo than emptying my energy for very little damage.

****

-I had a sad dream-, said the dervish
-what dream?- asked the paragon
-an elementalist was singing "i want you to notice when im not around"
-oh cool song, but whats an elementalist?
-an elementalist is someone that does damage with elements
-you use earth and wind, so then you are an elementalist
-no, im a dervish, an ele... bah nevermind, the past is in the past
-whatever, lets go farm some greens, you aggro them and blow them away while i inter-spike

Horseman Of War · Aug 22, 2006, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynn Evennia

* summoning a elemental being
* Attunements as skills
* Remove exhaustion on damage elites
* A skill that "locks" enchants, i mean that prevents them to be removed

attunement as skill isnt bad idea!

Quote:

-I had a sad dream-, said the dervish
-what dream?- asked the paragon
-an elementalist was singing "i want you to notice when im not around"
-oh cool song, but whats an elementalist?
-an elementalist is someone that does damage with elements
-you use earth and wind, so then you are an elementalist
-no, im a dervish, an ele... bah nevermind, the past is in the past
-whatever, lets go farm some greens, you aggro them and blow them away while i inter-spike

haha! i liked this

curtman · Aug 23, 2006, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynn Evennia

* summoning a elemental being
* Attunements as skills
* Remove exhaustion on damage elites
* A skill that "locks" enchants, i mean that prevents them to be removed

Yeah, my favs as well. There was a thread on Elemental beings awhile back. This feature would make the E a Summoner/Mage, a better support class. As long as they are elite skills that would work. I would like to see Elemental beings either added to the Rit or E, or a summoner profession.

Is there a Ward Against Spells? I know there is a Ward against Elements, but if WAS does not exist, it should. Have it Energy Storage, and have it give foes a 75% fail chance on casting spells in the area. Would ease the Touch Ranger problem a bit.

I like the idea of making E immune to exhaustion, while leaving it for other classes. The only spells which should have exhaustion for Es are the spamable ones, such as Obsidian Flame and low energy cost knock down skills. Meteor and Meteor shower should not have it due to recharge time and energy cost.

[QUOTE}
-I had a sad dream-, said the dervish
-what dream?- asked the paragon
-an elementalist was singing "i want you to notice when im not around"
-oh cool song, but whats an elementalist?
-an elementalist is someone that does damage with elements
-you use earth and wind, so then you are an elementalist
-no, im a dervish, an ele... bah nevermind, the past is in the past
-whatever, lets go farm some greens, you aggro them and blow them away while i inter-spike[/QUOTE]

LOL. So true.

Darkgift Risen · Aug 23, 2006, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

If elementalists were changed to anything more then they are now, they would be broken.
Spike city. When you can slap target X for 100+ damage every 8 seconds with ONE non-elite skill, that's good enough. When you can slow a target past 66% for over 10 seconds with three different skills, that's good enough. For 10 energy you can strike 3 people for over 100 damage each. What are you complaining for? For 25 energy you can maintain burning for over 30 seconds if your smart enough. Thats 420 damage. Use your heads, not your magic. You wont be able to just walk up and nuke everything in sight and expect to win. Throw some strategy into your skillbar. Go observe the skills PvE monsters use and how they synergize. It's really a good place to start learning.
And don't even complain about exhaustion. One of my necromancer builds uses gale as a REQUIREMENT to begin attacking an opponent and it doesn't have exhaustion issues. Instead of clicking every skill when it gets done recharging, try picking out tactical targets and striking them with the right skill at the right moment. You'll save energy and exhaustion this way.

agreed!! maybe D2 is a game you should try ..i hear their caster is mad powerful

Cynn Evennia · Aug 23, 2006, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by curtman

This feature would make the E a Summoner/Mage, a better support class. As long as they are elite skills that would work. I would like to see Elemental beings either added to the Rit or E, or a summoner profession.

I disagree. The Ethereal being summoned should not be like Flesh Golem but like a Bone fiend and if they were elites that would just make them useless: indeed, tell me, what ele does not run an elite that improves energy management? Ether Prodigy, Elemental attunement, Glyph of energy. What else do we run? I run Glyph of renewal sometimes to cast a Meteor shower each 20 secs. Anything else? Well, not me and not all the eles i have played with/against (unless they are trying out their new capped elites or they are NPC's).

Quote:

Originally Posted by curtman

Is there a Ward Against Spells? I know there is a Ward against Elements, but if WAS does not exist, it should. Have it Energy Storage, and have it give foes a 75% fail chance on casting spells in the area. Would ease the Touch Ranger problem a bit.

Well, Touchers use Vamp touch & bite, both SKILLS NOT SPELLS, to make a profit of their expertise primary attribute. But i agree that if the ele is meant for support and not for raw damage (and all points out towards) there should be wards vs projectiles and spells as well.

Cynn Evennia · Aug 23, 2006, 01:38 PM // 13:38

@ KAIDA

We have asked exhaustion off for Mind X, NEVER for Gale, Shock or Earthquake. Do we cast exhaustion spells like mad? Well, no, hehe. Maybe once when i just got a new spell but nothing more.

You use Gale at the beginning? Nice start, no? but then you dont use any ele magic, do you? Have you ever used ele magic? I guess you, as a necro, deal enough damage to be tempted to Gale like mad an enemy after you have spent almost all your energy casting and her health bar is still over the half.

Snares (foes slowed)? Yes, the ele rocks for the Water line, all the people here has acquainted that. I am surprised you post it because i havent found a single complain on the water line.

PvEs and sinergy? Ok, just tell me if the inertia of a single NPC mage is enough for damage. Jade Brotherhood guys for instance: with 2 mages stomping, 1 mesmer removing hexes, one rit healing and 2 triple choppers, thats a good combo, i think it twice before charging such a balanced group, but a mage alone is crap.

I tried once to mimic the Kurzick elementalist build and it was not effective because i was the only ele and i wasnt guarding a post, so wards and Unsteady ground were not of much use. Same with Ice imps, Sand elementals and every NPC ele ingame: they rock because they are more than one.

I agree we cannot just nuke like mad. Fortunately, for the sake of balance and fun, we cannot be just trolls casting at will (well, you can if you are lvl 20 facing chars at Fort Ranik

). The complain is that Fire is not a good line because its ratio damage/energy is not attractive at all and we are tied to use only the the elites of energy management due to that pitiful damage/energy ratio.

Silver_Fang · Aug 23, 2006, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynn Evennia

@ KAIDA

We have asked exhaustion off for Mind X, NEVER for Gale, Shock or Earthquake. Do we cast exhaustion spells like mad? Well, no, hehe. Maybe once when i just got a new spell but nothing more.

You use Gale at the beginning? Nice start, no? but then you dont use any ele magic, do you? Have you ever used ele magic? I guess you, as a necro, deal enough damage to be tempted to Gale like mad an enemy after you have spent almost all your energy casting and her health bar is still over the half.

Snares (foes slowed)? Yes, the ele rocks for the Water line, all the people here has acquainted that. I am surprised you post it because i havent found a single complain on the water line.

PvEs and sinergy? Ok, just tell me if the inertia of a single NPC mage is enough for damage. Jade Brotherhood guys for instance: with 2 mages stomping, 1 mesmer removing hexes, one rit healing and 2 triple choppers, thats a good combo, i think it twice before charging such a balanced group, but a mage alone is crap.

I tried once to mimic the Kurzick elementalist build and it was not effective because i was the only ele and i wasnt guarding a post, so wards and Unsteady ground were not of much use. Same with Ice imps, Sand elementals and every NPC ele ingame: they rock because they are more than one.

I agree we cannot just nuke like mad. Fortunately, for the sake of balance and fun, we cannot be just trolls casting at will (well, you can if you are lvl 20 facing chars at Fort Ranik

). The complain is that Fire is not a good line because its ratio damage/energy is not attractive at all and we are tied to use only the the elites of energy management due to that pitiful damage/energy ratio.

the most insane elementalist combo from NPC i have seen is the saltspray dragon, 1 of them is weak, but when 3-5 of them use ride the lightning and spam AoE, thats a problem.

xBakox · Aug 23, 2006, 03:38 PM // 15:38

This is my personal view on elementalists, please take note I haven't read the whole thread, but most of it (as its 10 pages and I don't have the time).

I think that elementalists are fine as they are in PvP, but a little unused in PvE.

I do not have a elementalist, but when I PvE I always try to get a elementalist in the group, though I agree they are not as "nessicary" as a MM or others.

Right now, in PvP elementalists are an excellent choice. There are warder Earth eles, Starburst/nuker eles, and blindbots are making their way back to HA. In GvG, Water eles and blindbots are the most chosen. For people complaining that eles (or just fire eles) are useless in PvP, get over it. Fire eles are some of the most common in HA.

I agree that some of the older AoE spells (Searing Heat as an example) need to be buffed. 25 energy for a moderate AoE that will most likely only hit a few numbers due to scattering (PvE) is ridiculous. There needs to be more AoEs that KD or cripple so they are more effective. The water line should get a few more high damage AoE snares with moderate recharges as well. And also the Mind _`s should not cause exhaustion, as well as a few other skills (Double Dragon).

frojack · Aug 23, 2006, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver_Fang

the most insane elementalist combo from NPC i have seen is the saltspray dragon, 1 of them is weak, but when 3-5 of them use ride the lightning and spam AoE, thats a problem.

Well I for one would be more worried about 1-3 warriors Death Charging me and using Eviscerate > Executioners than 3-5 eles using what you propose. Sure it's may not be instant (adrenaline issues) but it'll hurt a LOT more over the following few seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xBakox

...For people complaining that eles (or just fire eles) are useless in PvP, get over it. Fire eles are some of the most common in HA...

I honestly don't think anyone is saying they are useless. They're just not very good at what they're touted as being. Damage dealers. At least compared to some classes.

The main bone's of contention are:

-Damage
-Energy
-to a lesser extent, Defense (fragilty of enchantments, esentially the life-blood of the class and general health-care)

When around 80% of your skills are damage oriented you'd expect proficiency at exactly that. That is just not the case.

Esprit · Aug 23, 2006, 09:07 PM // 21:07

I think Elementalists are still viable in PvE and PvP. I run a fire and air elementalist in both.

Cynn Evennia · Aug 23, 2006, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Let me make some remarks.

No one is saying that the elementalist is totally useless. Fortunately ele players have found the way to play in very decent and clever ways the profession and they are still getting invites for parties. But what we complain about is that you bought something that does not satisfy what it was supposed to: "the elementalist is the damage dealers ingame". It can be seen even in PvE:

When you say "i need a damage dealer in the party" you could think about an ele, and you wont be dissapointed because ele is popular profession and the players have become very skillful managing their skills. But if you say "what is a must in the party" then warriors come to mind [ok no warriors in a party is idiot], then healers [doh ok im coming to the point...] then... what? If i am looking for masters id choose:

1. MM
2. SS
3. Assassin
4. Ele

I am happy that elementalist are still "viable", but you need to give the whole credit to the players because the skills per se are not very outstanding.

Phades · Aug 24, 2006, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynn Evennia

... then... what? If i am looking for masters id choose:

1. MM
2. SS
3. Assassin
4. Ele

Your list should look more like this

1. War (x4), 1 N (orders)
2. B/p Ranger (x5)
3. MM, /w others or SS
4. Mesmer, /w others
5. Assassin
6. Anything else
7. Ele

Ristaron · Aug 24, 2006, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Minus Sign,

Very good counter arguments on a few of my points (especially with attunements being stances, which I would have also suggested if 'skills' wasn't already the common idea, don't want to swarm the devs), I do hope you realize I suggested all the best possible solutions so that ANet will do it's typical 'half-ass fix' and repair the class to a decent level, which is one or two of them.

And the Meteor Shower point was mainly because I have a beef with that spell not being as useful as it should be. 1st second hit isn't meant to do anything more than get your energy's worth out of it. As is, the moment you cast it you have all the melee mobs running at you and leaving the bubble, decreasing the total damage the first wave could do from 540(90x6) to 180(90x2).
That is, if you cast it like is only sometimes a good means to: before you've actually aggroed the group.
If I was aiming to break the system I'd demand them to remove the intelligence from AI and have the monsters not move from AoE at all like it used to be.

Point being the same as that of the thread: fix the elementalist class.

Kool Pajamas · Aug 24, 2006, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Make attunements into skills instead of enchants and raise the amount they give back slightly for the individual attunements. Lower ele attune to make up for it, or keep ele attune as an enchant.

trialist · Aug 24, 2006, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver_Fang

the most insane elementalist combo from NPC i have seen is the saltspray dragon, 1 of them is weak, but when 3-5 of them use ride the lightning and spam AoE, thats a problem.

Well you are forgetting that those same dragons you speak of are lvl 20+, i think its 24 if i'm not wrong, and damage in guild wars scales higher with higher lvls as compared to that of attribute points. Trust me, the so called insane elementalist combo the saltspray dragons use, if you tried the same combo, you are going to be doing way pitiful damage in comparison to what they do, i'll be surprised if you can even kill anyone in pvp with that combo, as you will need to spread attribute points across both air and fire, making you hit for even less damage, not to mention the aftercast on the combo. It feels like an insane combo only because of the higher lvl of the dragons, not because of the skills and certainly not because of the damage those skills do at lvl 20.

Paperfly · Aug 24, 2006, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Quote:

Make attunements into skills instead of enchants and raise the amount they give back slightly for the individual attunements. Lower ele attune to make up for it, or keep ele attune as an enchant.

The opposite is much safer - make them all stances, and make a point of Elemental Attunement becoming a stance as well. This kills dual attunement, since you can only have one stance at a time... Which in turn lets you buff the 'discrete' attunements to 50% return.

That solves several problems: You now have the option of a non-elite energy management (Water Attunement etc. @ 50% return) which is decent enough that you can support a damage elite but isn't as good as an elite energy management (which is fair enough). You also remove the specter of dual attunements fuelling insane energy engines, allowing Elementalist skills in general to be buffed.

...Finally, it pushes Elemental Attunement into a role as the e-management for elementalists who use more than one line of spells, like it's clearly designed to be! As opposed to just being strictly better than the line-specific ones like it is now.

Spura · Aug 24, 2006, 11:57 AM // 11:57

The idea behind exhaustion is that it goes hand in hand with high energy pool of elementalist. Getting rid of it would make my assassin very very very happy as I would be able to gale and shock to my heart's content. The point of it was to make other classes than ele less able to spam the ele skills with it, because they have smaller energy pool. I think that current exhaustion mechanic is too hardcore even for someone with 70 energy in pool. So I think the thing we want here is weaker exhaustion. No exhaustion at all would make Me/E glad too. 5 exhaustion would be nice but there is a better solution. I think they need to make exhaustion expire faster. Right now you lose 10 exhaustion in 30 sec. Which is great for warriors who only have 2 pips anyway and as such don't give much crap about exhaustion. Making exhaustion recovery 10 per 20 sec would make one able to spam mind x spells as fast as they recharge(except mind burn) without accumulating any exhaustion if you don't use any other exhaustion spells. Perhaps 10 per 15 sec would be better(2 pips). It would enable ele to spam such skills twice as much and because of large energy pool, ele would be able to fire a lot of exhaustion skills in a burst and then recover twice as fast.

Even better idea would be to make exhaustion recovery proportionate to your energy pool. So instead of losing 1 exhaustion per 3 sec you'd lose x% of your energy pool of exhaustion per y sec. This would make characters with high energy pools recover exhaustion faster than characters with small energy pools. If such a change is made, recharges on skills like Second wind are in order to prevent them from being overpowered energy engines.

Ira Blinks · Aug 24, 2006, 12:58 PM // 12:58

i still like the idea of ES reducing exhaustion by 1 for every two points in it...

Paperfly · Aug 26, 2006, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

The idea behind exhaustion is that it goes hand in hand with high energy pool of elementalist. Getting rid of it would make my assassin very very very happy as I would be able to gale and shock to my heart's content

That is why Exhaustion is a very elegant mechanic when applied to cheap repeatable effects (as a secondary limitation on the recharge time). So Obsidian Flame, Gale and Shock are all examples of Exhaustion being used right.

...But there's no gameplay reason at all for "big effect" spells to have Exhaustion, particularly the ones that have insanely long recharge times already! Meteor Shower, for instance, clearly only has Exhaustion because someone in the creative department thought it would be cool.

Phades · Aug 26, 2006, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paperfly

That is why Exhaustion is a very elegant mechanic when applied to cheap repeatable effects (as a secondary limitation on the recharge time). So Obsidian Flame, Gale and Shock are all examples of Exhaustion being used right.

Those are examples of exhaustion when best used by something other than a elementalist. Sersiously, the hard cap on the upper limit for energy takes away the elementalist's primary attribute effectivly. Sure it gives more room to wait out the exhaustion, but thats merely called downtime when there is nothing else worthwhile for the ele to be doing. Then when you contrast it to other profesisons like mesmer or warrior, you have other skills that are worthwhile using and do not have nearly the same kind of drawback and just use the exhaustion mechanic to ride out periods where they could not chain shutodown style skills on their own. In reality skills like gale and shock merely become playable because they do not have the real +40 energy cost that the exhaustion simulates. Obsidian flame would be useful, except that it cant be used to sustain any kind of offense, unlike virtually every other profession in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paperfly

...But there's no gameplay reason at all for "big effect" spells to have Exhaustion, particularly the ones that have insanely long recharge times already! Meteor Shower, for instance, clearly only has Exhaustion because someone in the creative department thought it would be cool.

This is the other side of the coin. The big spells only stack exhaustion with the other skills that are worth using. This merely adds insult to injury on mostly unplayable skills. To be honest, the entire profession needs to be re-defined either to do damage, or have more of a global style situation control. Individual damage and situation control specialists already exist and trying to compete directly with them could cause issues. With the size of most elementalist aoe, only npcs will caught regularly inside it, while players will move and spread out as neccacary. If the trend for overpricing is to continue and the focus needs to shift from the normal being point and fire skills to suppression style abilities which would make elementalists more unique.